When Think Visibility was announced we had some great and some not so great comments, I’m a big boy and I can take it.. I was only upset by two comments, one asked why I’d only picked one woman speaker and the other stating that a ticket had only been bought when I announced Katie Lips was speaking..In the end I had 5 comments on the questionnaire questioning why there was only one woman speaker (there were two at that point but thats a different story) and I couldn’t understand why you would only go and see a speaker based on sex, I overheard some attendees go and see a talk because “you’ve got to support the girls” but they didn’t because I didn’t pick Katie “because she was a girl” I picked Katie because she knew her subject area (even if she changed it at the last minute 
) and I knew she could speak well, Katie had a good amount of people to say it at 9am in the morning and quite a few were still drunk from the night before!
I’ve taken issue with the geek girl dinners before but I’ve gone to almost every one of them (tonight will be the first Leeds one I have not attended) but seeing the women on the web conference announced today just ticked me off a bit.
I’ll put a disclaimer here that I run a conference that can be seen as a competitor to women on the web so if you want to see this as just a “I don’t like the competition post” then free
My issue with the GGD is that its a social event but there seems to be an underlying theme which is “there arn’t enough women in technology”…. SO DO SOMETHING
This is exctaly what I have said to the linux groups who meet up and moan about linux marketshare (thats not ALL they do but they do talk about that a lot :p)
Its the same problem that technology has as a whole…kids, most kids want to be footballers or (whatever 12 year old girls want to be) not database systems analysts or front end developers.. You need to get active and get out there..
Go into schools and say “hands up who uses myspace (or facebook)” who wants to make there own? in a few lessons they can be posting and receiving from databases and the creativity will bloom…in some, I’m not saying that every kid is going to try and be Matt Mullenweg or Marissa Mayer but we would all be doing much better than we are now with the current schools teaching kids about “desktop publishing” and access databases.
There are some fantatic women technology in the local area; Debs, Linda, Becky, Lorna, Zoe, Céline, Gemma and Fiona are just a few that I know well (I know I’m going to miss some of you but I carn’t list you all!) but does it have to be about sex? do I see them as women and men as men or do I see them as experts or enthusiasts in there chosen field of technology (I`ll be honest.. its the latter).
The events that I go to tend to be out of office hours, so that you carn’t just get work to pay for it and it doesn’t matter if you enjoy it or not (which is why ThinkVisbility is on a Saturday) the events that we have you have to have a passion for and you have take some personal time out to meet people who are interested in the related areas that way if you have almost nothing in common with the person, you at least have one shared interest.
Getting back to ThinkVisibility, I had set criteria for the speakers when I selected them (and I selected most of them) I’m not going to explain what they were but I will say that I asked a lot of women if they would like to speak and only Katie said yes… I almost posted a message to women only mailing lists asking for speakers and ignoring my criteria but I realised I was just as bad, I was looking for speakers based on sex and not achievement, what would an audience learn differently from a women with experience than a man… there may be a lot there but its a different point of view not a negative point.
A few weeks before Think Visibility we had a speaker drop out and I asked one of the speakers we had lined up for ThinkVisibiliy2 in September to come and speaker earlier.. she was picked not because she was a girl but because she has experience in her field (and she was on twitter!)
I really don’t want to be negative about this subject because I really enjoy the company of almost everyone I meet at events and the geek girl dinner is no exception (although I will say that the manchester one had nicer food!) but if your going to promote these women only events and run them, then make sure you let them know about the events where anyone is free to go because it might be a different atmosphere… but different isn’t always bad.
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Can I say that the reason I don’t go to the GGD is because of that underlying theme. I also don’t think that meeting people based purely on a mutual gender is worth it. Like-minded or otherwise, there are lots of like-minded men so user groups are far more worthwhile if you ask me.
I’m probably far in the minority in this line of thinking, but it is something that has been bugging me ever since I heard about them. It shouldn’t be “girls doin it for demselves” it should be .people doin it for each other.”
I think it would take a lot of convincing to make me stop my silent protest and actually attend one.
(btw thank you for the mention
)
An interesting, thought-provoking post my little Hodge. I for one was a bit shocked when I looked at the running order and saw that out of 16 speakers, only one was a woman. I’ve been since told that this is normal for a technology event, but it was my first one and I had no idea this industry was this male-dominated.
And this is why for me, women-only events are very important in the technology industry. As a member of the ruling majority (white, male and, above all, blonde), it’s probably difficult for you to understand what it’s like to be a very visible minority. You can’t just say “men and women are the same, there’s no need for separation”. It’s a bit like a White policeman saying “there’s no racism in the police, why the need for a Black Police Association?”. There is sexism out there, there is racism, but above all, when you’re part of a certain group, let’s call it a minority, you have to face a different set of challenges from the majority. That’s why it’s so useful and refreshing to be able to meet people in exactly the same situation, who will understand and help you out. Linda said something interesting to me earlier. She was chatting to one of the 8 men who went to GGD (out of 70 people), and he said that he was a bit nervous about being amongst so many women and few men. Linda replied that this is what it’s like for all women in technology, all the time. He said he’d never thought about it that way; I really think you have to experience it to understand it.
Ages ago I joined a football forum to talk about… football, obviously. I was naïve enough to use my name and say that I played footie. You wouldn’t believe the reactions of the other members (mainly blokes). Nobody wanted to hear what I had to say, all they cared about was making jokes about exchanging shirts at the end of the game and the like. Very funny for them I’m sure, but I just left the forum and stuck to talking about footie with my (male and female) friends. I find that this kind of attitude is unfortunately quite common amongst men, who tend to take women slightly less seriously than their counterparts, particularly when we have the cheek to try and talk about our specific issues. Another reason to promote women-only events.
All this to say that there are entrenched attitudes towards gender out there that are very hard to break down, and having spaces where women can express themselves without fear of being ridiculed or labeled this or that is crucial. You really shouldn’t see it as a threat, I think everyone has to benefit from it and in fact, it’s probably the best way to make sure that, next year, more women may come forward to talk at Think Visibility.
Hi Céline,
I actually disagree with the statement that I havn’t been there, long before I entered the world of SEO I worked in childcare for a charity that was part of mencap, of the 20+ staff there were only 3 blokes and only 2 of us were not studying anything to do with being a doctor or a nurse.
I got a lot of funny looks when I mentioned that I did childcare and they either assumed I was gay or that a family member was mentally ill (neither of which are true)
But I didn’t see it as “theres too many women and not enough blokes” I saw them as friends and coworkers who knew there profession.
The fact is that we do have more women speakers at Think Visibility next time but that’s on merit not on the fact they are women.
I don’t disagree that there are differences within the groups but put it this way, if everyone who went to the Geek Girl Dinner turned up to geekup there would be no minority, more conversation (a bigger venue) and less barriers.
Thanks for your comment and notice i used the funny looking e
If you had stayed in that job, wouldn’t you have found it helpful to have a forum where you and other men could discuss the problems you faced and that were specifically linked to your gender, though?
And thanks for using the funny-looking e – of course I noticed
I cannot answer that because I didn’t but I didn’t leave because I felt that I didn’t fit, I was happy with the job and happy with the team (I just couldn’t afford my rent!)
Are there any stats on how the genders are represented in the industry?
Whilst there were only two female speakers at Think Visibility, the attendance was also split with a male majority, so maybe that’s just the way it is.
I certainly don’t think that women are poorly represented – some of the best people in the online community are female, from designers and developers through to those in marketing and beyond. Until your post Dom, I’d not even considered that there were *only* two female speakers!
Could it be beneficial for women in a male-dominated industry, enabling them to get others (both male and female) to take notice of what they are doing and what they have to say? I’m currently setting up a sports-related blog for my girlfriend (the sport in question is pretty much 80/20 male/female), so I wonder if that could work in her favour?
For the last two years alistapart.com has conducted surveys regarding the web community, including gender, the results should be available on the website, this is worldwide data collected from their users.
Hodge, PLEASE stick to your guns and choose speakers on MERIT and no other criteria. I loathe “positive discrimination” in all its forms. I certainly would not want to be picked for anything on the basis that I am female, rather than good at what I do.
I have worked in very male-dominated industries for years (electronic engineering and now web). I’ve always felt treated as an equal by colleagues, and often looked up to, rather than down upon. Perhaps I’m fortunate and unusual in that respect.
I’ve only ever attended one Girl Geek Dinner (in London a couple of years ago) and I have to say, I found it one of the most depressing things I’d ever been to. It very quickly degenerated into a “man-hating” slugfest, and I left sharpish, to walk round the corner for PubStandards. That’s the monthly no-discriminatory web-geek meetup for beer, chat and, beer. We all have a great time, and I felt much more at home. I’ve never been back to a GGD since.
And anyway, I’ve always thought that, if you want to raise the profile of women in technology, it’s far better to “infiltrate” the mainstream events rather than hang out in some exclusionist group. Can you imagine the hoo-ha if there was a BarCampGirlGeek? I dread to think…
OK, rant over
Maybe these people need to explain themselfs better because they’re coming across like bloody idiots!
Wow…I saw Women on the Web announced too and almost rushed out to write a blog post about it, but I thought I’d sleep on it so I didn’t just have a rant!
Let’s just say I agree with what you’re saying, and I’ll write in more depth later. Women-only events, awards, etc etc really get my goat….
Firstly I’d like to support Dom and the conference 110%, I think it was a massive success. The pedigree of the speakers were second to none and the information gained by all was value for money. Feedback I’ve heard has only been positive, from the speakers all the way down to the first time attendees
Now the rant:
FACTS
1. I have been in the industry for nearly a decade
2. I have worked with both male and female colleagues
3. There is no gender alienation from males
4. Again, there is NO gender alienation in the industry!
Analogy
Remember the Dragons Den Episode, two females pitched for funding for their business in the construction industry. Their main driving objective was to put ‘a female in every building site in the UK’. Now cutting a long story short the Dragons basically had to be held back from verbally attacking them for being such idiots. They were actively accused of alienating females in the industry which I agree with completely.
This is a similar situation, having gender-specific events does the industry no good at all. The fact there are less females in our industry is only a reflection of the work and the interests of people. If females want a career in IT then I see no barriers but their ability and attitudes.
Recent ‘female only’ events and happenings
1.http://www.womeninenterprise.co.uk/
2.http://www.geekgirldinners.com/
3.http://womenontheweb.wordpress.com/
Now name a men only event in the industry.
In Summary
I feel the only barrier for female entering the industry is ability, attitude and personality. What does need to change is the stigma people have regarding females in an industry and I have found it’s typically with females this attitude resides.
“there arn’t enough women in technology”…. SO DO SOMETHING
Isn’t that what Geek Girls Dinners is all about?
“
”
Some 12 year old girls want to be footballers too. And some boys want to be (whatever you think 12 year old girls want to be).
On a post like this, I’d have thought you’d be more careful about such obvious gender based generalisations
p.s: I wanted to be a database systems princess
Well said, Tom.
I just don’t understand the antagonism directed towards the Girl Geek Dinner, or any other women-only event.
This debate is one that goes back years, since the feminism movement started in the sixties, and no doubt before then too. On one hand, it seems perfectly reasonable: of course we should all be judged on our merits, and gender / race / sexuality / class / disability / age / etc *shouldn’t* matter. But in reality it does. It affects the career and life chances of people from minorities and disadvantaged groups: women still earn less than men, black end ethic minorities don’t get promoted as highly as their white counterparts, working class people die younger than the middle class and disabled people are routinely excluded from jobs and services.
So I don’t have a problem with women – or any other group – organising themselves to support and encourage each other and share the experiences that are particular to their life.
FACTS
1. I have been in the industry for nearly a decade
2. I have worked with both male and female colleagues
3. There is no gender alienation from males
4. Again, there is NO gender alienation in the industry!
It’s funny Frog, I assumed you were a woman as you seemed to be talking from a woman’s point of view. How would you know about women’s experience in any field? You remind me of that White policeman I was talking about who insisted that there is NO racism in the police. FACT.
”
Most industry events are de facto virtually men-only.
@ Celine The point I was making is that I have never seen a divide in my industry in the time I have been in it, and surely that is a good thing is it not?
@James. I completely agree, these events are very much male dominated, but are they men-only?
Hey Dom .. you certainly know how to get a debate going. I have said for many years that there are not enough “girls” in the industry and I’m not saying that as a good or a bad thing.
Running Bronco and recruiting I often get asked by the guys in the office why we can’t employ more girls … (there’s me and 13 guys) and the reason is that we don’t get the applicants. The last batch of female applicants we had was for a web designer role, but they all had the wrong skill set being more graphical print designers with a bit of web knowledge rather than a web designer with good CSS skills for SEO.
I don’t see the lack of girls in the industry as a bad thing .. why should there be an even split of girls in the industry? We are made differently and the requirements of the brain of a programmer is something that a girl brain can’t generally do … the same goes for if you ask a man to do more than one things at once. Women are great multi taskers and we look at problems in a totally different way .. which surely is a good thing because if men and women were the same, how boring would that be.
I’ve been to loads of conferences with Dave over the years and there is never any thought as to how many men and women are attending or speaking .. it will always be male dominated. I just don’t see the appeal of going to a female only conference … WHY?
Why would it even be considered? the women who want to get on in this industry need to be mixing at the main stream conferences rather than having a closed conference which alienates themselves further.
Anyway enough of a rant .. i’ve got a company to run
Anyone want to attend my gay geeks dinner?
j/k *ducks*
@Caz Mockett I have exactly the same experience in the industry that you have.
I’m not a women in technology, but I am a woman in Engineering, which is an area traditionally dominated by men and still is.
Having read all the comments on this post I’m split – yes it’s nice to have women only events to discuss things without being patronised but only when they don’t turn into ‘we hate men’ events.
And no, because it does promote positive discrimination which I disagree with.
I’m doing my best to “do something” about the lack of women in Engineering by being as good as I can be at what I do and gaining recognition through that.
And Dom – you should definitely keep choosing your speakers on merit otherwise you become part of the problem, oh and your events become weaker!
Hello.
I don’t do the tech end, I manage making stuff. And I am a laydee.
So having had endless discussions on this topic before, one of the major steps forward in thinking that I made personally is that it would be a positive step fprward for all concerned if all the major conferences had creches, and were therefore *parent* friendly as opposed to merely women. If one extended that to the weekend un -conferences, where brilliant, delightful thinking is taking place, I thikthe number of women at all events would rise significantly – to the point where representation of women would not be as serious a discussion point.
Attendence at conferences and associated networking is an exceptional opportunity for women who otherwise would be hidden within the industry to a) network, b) get their ideas above the parapet and c) take part in creative ideas where new ideas and visibility can come to fruition. All of this stuff is currently dominated by men – and I don’t say that in a bitter way, more practical. Well, of course it is, because there are barely any women there.
What we need at conferences is to provide an environment for both genders where a ‘tipping point’ can take place for women attendees, which does not positively discriminate, it merely provides an environment where women are not accidentally discriminated against.
fwiw I’m extremely uncomfortable about women only events and I can’t quite put my finger on why. It could purely be a personal thing about shyness, it could be a lack-of-time-with-2-young-children thing.
If anything, we need to spend time examining how to ‘up’ the visibility on the creative aspects of the job, and downplaying the “WoW” or “Halo” type personification of the type of person who gets involved, therefore rather than trying to set up conferences limiting speaker to one gender which are supposed to be industry thought-spaces, why not set up conferences in which we attempt to problem solve getting the positive message avbout technology out to school kids , and girls in particular?
I always thought that the advent of blogs and the widespread distribution of cheap or free CMS’s would take the creative ability of HTML/javascript one step forward and really be exciting for young girls, who are drawn very easily in by the idea of creation and storytelling, but it seems to have made no difference at all to the numbers taking up CS at school.
I think that ‘women only’ events create a division which actually isnt there in the first place. I was asked to speak on SEO and online marketing at a womens business networking meeting in Harrogate as a freebie by one of the members, I gladly accepted. But when it was put to the group it was decided it would be ‘better’ to get a female speaker instead. I have since been told 18mths later that the online marketing talk never happened. What a shame that someone decided that it was better not to have this valuable info because it was coming from a bloke!
I think you should be the keynote speaker on this theme at the next Leeds Girl Geek Dom.
As I’ve been to two of them now, and not felt uncomfortable as one of a few men, nor heard any whining, I think they will treat you with kindness.
Joff – Thanks for your thoughts
Steve – I’d forgotten about that poll
Caz – Thanks for your thoughts and re the camp… you mean like this http://geekgirlcamp.com
Piggynap – I’ve linked to your blog post
Frog – I’d disagree with your last two points that there is a gender difference in the industry but your story about the dragons den does rein true and I remember that
Tom Smith – No, the geek girl dinners are a social event for women to speak to likeminded women, I’ve been to a few and there seems to be a back channel discussion of “theres not enough women in the industry”, I just don’t think thats enough, but its not just women, we should be getting kids and teenagers involved as early as possible in all aspects of tech!
John Leach – You’ll always be my princess
James – See Tom’s Reply and I’ve always attended and supported the geek girl dinners, I’ve shared my feelings with men and women and i’ve had both agree and disagree (like this comment)
James – Most events are attended mostly by males they arn’t only for males, there is a difference and males are the majority… You carn’t expect differently
Frog – I just said that
Becky – Thanks for your comments and a perspective from one not only as a female in the industry but also as an employer
Jimmy – Could I come as a date?….wait a minute…
Sarah Javis – I never thought you’d comment on my blog
The term Positive Discrimination is one that has been used a lot around this subject and my speakers were and are all chosen on merit not sex (Tim wouldn’t sleep with me)
Calt – I have to say its the first time anyone has brought up the subject of creches to me, if there is much of a demand then I will have a look at it at the events I run but a) the events I’ve spoken about with women don’t seem to have creches and b) that would probably bring up the price quite a bit as they have to be sourced, hired and I have no idea what the legalities would be
Sobuisness – Thats an interesting story and I’m sorry you wern’t asked to speak, some friends have been asked to speak before then rescinded once they relased the speaker didn’t live in london and they would have to pay travel costs
Hi John, I’ve actually been to every Leeds geek girl dinner apart from the latest one, I’ve also been to the Manchester one and had a chat with the founder about my feelings.. I never said there was hostility (its a completely different atmosphere and I tend to try and stay out the way because its not a night for me its a night for Hev)
Imagine the hoo-ha you’d have if it was a “White-only” Geek Dinner… and that’s just how wrong it is.
I am a male whom attended the GGD last Thursday…it was a good experience; I will be honest i was there so see the speakers above everything else; i had no problem getting an invite and the tone of the event was not really much different from any others.
I think you have a valid point, but i am not sure as men we are in a position to judge in anyway (what with us still dominating the industry and what not). Clearly there is a demand for these events and I don’t see the theme as been as important; It seems to be more about just setting a different atmosphere for the night.
Hi all,
I’m Liz Cable of Reach Further, and am organising the Women on the Web conferences, and series of seminars http://womenontheweb.wordpress.com for Forward Ladies, a networking group of 3,500 women in Leeds and West Yorkshire, who run their own businesses http://www.forwardladies.com
I chose to run this event through Forward Ladies because I wanted women to be absolutely sure they are welcome. Men are welcome to be members of Forward Ladies, and to come to the events too.
My motivation is simple. Three facts:
1.According to a 2009 national computer centre survey, 1 in 5 women over 45 have never been on the internet.
2.Only 6% of businesses in Leeds are owned by women.
3.The average age at which a woman starts a business is 42.
This means, to me, that there is a group of women of a certain age with the aspiration to start a business, but a lack of knowledge, and they need supporting.
That’s it. I hope you can support me in supporting them.
The fact that you are able to Twitter and to blog about this, means that you have a voice that they haven’t got. Yet.
Right then! Sorry I am joining this conversation rather late, but here’s my twopenneth worth…
First, massive thanks Dom for the high quality, fast paced, insightful, useful, inspiring, challenging and unique Think Visibility – both for the conference in general, which was great and I learnt LOADS, and secondly for the chance to speak. I met lots of very lovely and intelligent people (both speakers and audience) – male and female.
On male:female speaker ratios: 1/16 is low, but would never advocate positive discrimination. There are plenty of talented women who can deliver great presentations and workshops, but it does seem that across the board more men seem comfortable with putting themselves on a pedestal.
On why I continually volunteer for speaking at events, conferences, doing workshops etc… It’s fun, it’s a great way to talk about my work and share ideas, to get feedback and new ideas, to meet people for professional networking and as new friends, and of course totally unalturistically to promote what I do and earn money (directly or indirectly).
On what to do about it (if you want to do something). If you are male or female and wonder why you never get asked to talk at conferences, then you have to offer (not all the time, and Dom invited me rather than me inviting myself), but at least in the beginning until you get to be “one of those people that pops up” everywhere! If you want to see / hear a speaker missing from a speaker list, get in touch with the conference organiser and suggest your favourite speaker.
On Girl Geek Dinners, I enjoyed GGD Leeds, but have also had bad experiences at a GGD (Amsterdam). I love the positive support of tech communities – GGD, OpenCoffee, Barcamps etc but do hate whinging about ‘why are there not more women in tech’?
Oh yeah and for a great list of women in tech see http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009/03/24/ada-lovelace-day-celebrating-women-in-tech/